Strange situation. Because if Arbcom comes to the conclusion WMF has not the right to interfere with SanFanBans, they have to give access to everyone who is SanFanBanned.
Not for me, I am blocked by Boing and have not any intention to return to the wiki snake pit.
Hell not, not that bunch of idiots again in my life, never!
Fram
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Graaf Statler
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Re: Fram
Awesome. The community wants to govern itself. Well, look who just dumped the responsibility of deciding what to do with Floquenbeam, Bishonen and WJScribe for messing with an OFFICE action?
....
They abused their tools without knowing the consequences to unidentified complainents.
They abused their tools in full knowledge what they were doing was controversial.
They abused their tools in open defiance of the 'community's new BFF Jimmy's appeal not to do anything that will make things worse.
They abused their tools and were celebrated as heroes.
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ArbCom's judgement I think is going to want to find a kludge.
....
They abused their tools for political ends.We defer to Arbcom’s judgment on how to proceed with regard to such behavior issues in this case.
They abused their tools without knowing the consequences to unidentified complainents.
They abused their tools in full knowledge what they were doing was controversial.
They abused their tools in open defiance of the 'community's new BFF Jimmy's appeal not to do anything that will make things worse.
They abused their tools and were celebrated as heroes.
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ArbCom's judgement I think is going to want to find a kludge.
Re: Fram
Oh Lordy. Already looking like ArbCom wants to pull the escape hatch lever.....
So be an adult, and make a judgement.
If the judgement is "we do not wish to sanction these users", then have the guts to say it, and own it.
This is self-government. Taking responsibility.
They didn't make peace with it, they said they defer to your judgment, like the screaming mob demanded.If the WMF can make peace with our community member's dissenting actions then I see no benefit to the committee throwing around sanctions instead. WormTT(talk) 20:32, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
So be an adult, and make a judgement.
If the judgement is "we do not wish to sanction these users", then have the guts to say it, and own it.
This is self-government. Taking responsibility.
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Graaf Statler
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Re: Fram
It is of course a hot potato, and nobody want to burn his mouth.
You said it before Crow, they all want the benefits, but not the responsibility. However, there is much more going on, because this is a WMF kings drama.
Behind T&S is a compete wikiindustry with Trijnstel, Drmies, TonyBalloni, Mdd, Wikischim, Vituzzu, and the complete Dutch wiki cabal. And don't forget Fram is from orgine a Dutch user.
It is all about power inside WMF, and is the arbcom willing to step in this vespiar?
i don't think that would be wise, because on the background is also the Abd law case and Statler who is waiting with a baseball bat at the exit of the rabbit hole.....
Not very attractive for the English Arbcom to step in this mine field I suppose....
You said it before Crow, they all want the benefits, but not the responsibility. However, there is much more going on, because this is a WMF kings drama.
Behind T&S is a compete wikiindustry with Trijnstel, Drmies, TonyBalloni, Mdd, Wikischim, Vituzzu, and the complete Dutch wiki cabal. And don't forget Fram is from orgine a Dutch user.
It is all about power inside WMF, and is the arbcom willing to step in this vespiar?
i don't think that would be wise, because on the background is also the Abd law case and Statler who is waiting with a baseball bat at the exit of the rabbit hole.....
Not very attractive for the English Arbcom to step in this mine field I suppose....
Last edited by Graaf Statler on Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Carrite
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Re: Fram
CrowsNest wrote:And during this whole mess, what happened to this idea that the WMF, which is after all mostly staffed by people who started as and continue to be volunteers in other areas, is part of the community?
Is it really???
No.
RfB
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Graaf Statler
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Re: Fram
Of course there is, Tim. You only have to have a look on your beloved Wikipediocrazy.
It's a kings drama, the continuing of sinking Drmies by Fram for arbcom and as you can see is Guido constant in the house.
You can't split the community and the free loaders of the chapters and WMF, it is all the same crap.
Crap, crap, crap. Most of them are not even able to write a shopping list, and that should be a editorial staff? Give me a break!
It is very simple, the absolute crap users find there way up and start in this way there wiki career and start to kick down on there way to the top.
Why are you here telling all the time incredible crap, Timmy boy? Why don't you stay with your crap friends on Wikipediocrazy?
What are you doing here all the time, Tim?
It's a kings drama, the continuing of sinking Drmies by Fram for arbcom and as you can see is Guido constant in the house.
You can't split the community and the free loaders of the chapters and WMF, it is all the same crap.
Crap, crap, crap. Most of them are not even able to write a shopping list, and that should be a editorial staff? Give me a break!
It is very simple, the absolute crap users find there way up and start in this way there wiki career and start to kick down on there way to the top.
Why are you here telling all the time incredible crap, Timmy boy? Why don't you stay with your crap friends on Wikipediocrazy?
What are you doing here all the time, Tim?
Re: Fram
Pipe down, Toxic Timmy!Carrite wrote:CrowsNest wrote:And during this whole mess, what happened to this idea that the WMF, which is after all mostly staffed by people who started as and continue to be volunteers in other areas, is part of the community?
Is it really???
No.
RfB
Carrite's view is just false - it doesn't reflect the attitudes of the WMF nor the community advocates nor is there inherent tension between the Foundation's goals and the community's goals. When there are frictions, the solution is not to unionize and battle but to fix the underlying problem.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:12, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Re: Fram
Poor Jimmy. Ever the optimist. Wasting his life on these idiots.For me, progress involves working on some real issues with enforcement of civility. It isn't easy. Judgment calls have to be made, etc. But I believe that we can do much better and that even for that strange class of editors who do a lot of productive work but at great emotional cost to the rest of us, we are better off without them, because they cost us good editors in lots of ways. (Not just through their own obnoxiousness, but through the lowering of community norms that ensues by tolerating their behavior.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
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Graaf Statler
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Re: Fram
Jimmy and the rest has simple no idea of civility. They think civility display itself only in words, not in action. They simple don't understand if someone is polite in words it can be a tremendous jerk.
I come from a other world, the rude world of stand builders.
I have worked on construction places in Germany when I was young, and believe me, I have seen how a Jan Eißfeldt was thrown off a scaffolding. Latterly! Three meters down in the sand. Hey, you was still in your father's telescope when I already did this work.
Was the older man who said this uncivilised? Or the guy who throw him of the scaffolding? No, not at all.
The Jan Eißfeldt was, just like James Alexander was to me.
I come from a other world, the rude world of stand builders.
I have worked on construction places in Germany when I was young, and believe me, I have seen how a Jan Eißfeldt was thrown off a scaffolding. Latterly! Three meters down in the sand. Hey, you was still in your father's telescope when I already did this work.
Was the older man who said this uncivilised? Or the guy who throw him of the scaffolding? No, not at all.
The Jan Eißfeldt was, just like James Alexander was to me.
Re: Fram
Jesus. SilkTork wants this Arb Case to happen, to serve as a discussion venue to bring together the Foundation, ArbCom and Muggles to adopt new procedures, critically examining the Wikipedia community's own failings in how it handles complaints and communicates with the Foundation.
It is ironic, just now much of a power grab this would be. ArbCom handles serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. It does not exist to be the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in cases where all the misconduct was simply a result of the alleged absence of policy or procedure, in large part because it has no authority to create new policy.
Any wide ranging discussion of what went wrong and how to fix it, is absolutely the competence of the community. They may not be interested, or it may just turn into a complete mess with no outcomes, but hey, it's Wikipedia, its the method of working they signed up to.
There are only two choices here if they accept a Case - absolve the specific incidents of serious misconduct if it is thought the lack of clear policy or procedure adequately explains it, or sanction them because (and this seems the obvious outcome) the misconduct only really occurred because what little policy does exist, was disagreeable to certain advanced rights holders, who deliberately chose to abuse their tools by deploying them in a non-emergency situation where no realistic IAR case exists, merely to inflame the dispute, not resolve it.
There is the same ridiculous reminder that during this Commission, people need to abide by WP:CIVIL.....
It is ironic, just now much of a power grab this would be. ArbCom handles serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. It does not exist to be the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in cases where all the misconduct was simply a result of the alleged absence of policy or procedure, in large part because it has no authority to create new policy.
Any wide ranging discussion of what went wrong and how to fix it, is absolutely the competence of the community. They may not be interested, or it may just turn into a complete mess with no outcomes, but hey, it's Wikipedia, its the method of working they signed up to.
There are only two choices here if they accept a Case - absolve the specific incidents of serious misconduct if it is thought the lack of clear policy or procedure adequately explains it, or sanction them because (and this seems the obvious outcome) the misconduct only really occurred because what little policy does exist, was disagreeable to certain advanced rights holders, who deliberately chose to abuse their tools by deploying them in a non-emergency situation where no realistic IAR case exists, merely to inflame the dispute, not resolve it.
There is the same ridiculous reminder that during this Commission, people need to abide by WP:CIVIL.....
If there needs to be any Major Inquiry, it needs to be into the reasons why the community so frequently even really needs reminding to abide by what is a Pillar of the community. ArbCom has played its role in that erosion, Opabina specifically, but she was merely further eroding what others before her had previously eroded, so obviously they can hardly be the ones holding the hearings.I also feel that it is important that if we do hold this case, that everyone conducts themselves as they would at a job interview. With the benefit of the internet, none of us are speaking live, and so we all have the opportunity to pause and reflect on what we have typed before pressing the Publish changes button. Anyone who uses the sort of language that would not be used in a job interview or on day time TV will be reverted and warned. If they do it again they are banned from the case pages. Anyone who comments negatively on another person rather than that person's actions will be reverted and warned. If they do it again they are banned from the case pages. Anyone who posts angrily will be reverted and warned. If they do it again they are banned from the case pages. It is time for us to stop making allowances for people being angry and insulting during ArbCom cases. There is far less excuse for that than there is during a live court case. We need to move forward and show that sensitive and contentious issues can be conducted in a calm and structured manner. SilkTork (talk) 08:36, 15 June 2019 (UTC)