The MediaWiki development experience

For WMF employee / slave nonsense, developer hijinks, and MediaWiki and related software screw-ups.
User avatar
ericbarbour
Sucks Admin
Posts: 4626
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:56 am
Location: The ass-tral plane
Has thanked: 1158 times
Been thanked: 1848 times

Re: The MediaWiki development experience

Post by ericbarbour » Thu Sep 21, 2023 11:35 pm

Bbb23sucks wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2023 7:47 pm
Just look at a company like Twitter or the WMF. They have hundreds if not thousands of highly salaried developers and yet their software barely works (if at all in Twitter's case).
All of the social media companies are like that. If my business depended on Facebook for sales, I'd be bankrupt by now. Because there's no way to tell if FB will run normally from day to day. Thousands of coders piling their new stuff onto a vast pile of older stuff. No one cuts the pile down--it just gets taller and wider and slower and less reliable. And there's no one to complain to, even if you're PAYING them for a service.

"Feature creep" is a stupid term. I would call it simply bad design and insane management. Most of the WMF's "precious wiki code" was written by two guys, both volunteers for the first few years. It worked, it built a power pole, and now it's attracting the fat and grease that always accumulates around power poles. This is why I like to use IBM as the worst example, it's the biggest and greasiest power pole the computer world has ever seen. Or at least it WAS--now it's slowly declining into irrelevance.

User avatar
Bbb23sucks
Sucker
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:08 am
Location: The Astral Plane
Has thanked: 1285 times
Been thanked: 274 times

Re: The MediaWiki development experience

Post by Bbb23sucks » Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:30 am

ericbarbour wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2023 11:35 pm
Thousands of coders piling their new stuff onto a vast pile of older stuff. No one cuts the pile down--it just gets taller and wider and slower and less reliable. And there's no one to complain to, even if you're PAYING them for a service.
https://changelog.com/podcast/552#transcript-45
ericbarbour wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2023 11:35 pm
"Feature creep" is a stupid term. I would call it simply bad design and insane management.
Yes, that's the main problem, but "feature creep" is still a problem, just not in the way you might think. A lot of the problem of "feature creep" is with "features" that aren't ever even seen by the end user. Often these are code that was formerly used, but has is no longer needed. Or internal features that were added prematurely in anticipation of needs that never actually happened.

I even noticed this myself when I needed to bring over some of Python's source code into the new forum software I'm building. The code (despite CPython having in general very good code quality) contained several obscure internal features that weren't really needed. (This was a C module that was accessed a Python wrapper that didn't even expose the features anyway). I got rid of the unneeded features and it sent me down a cascading effect of removing other (now unnecessary) code. In the end, the new code was much simpler, readable, more extensible, and faster.

I can't find it now, but there was a quote from one of the Plan 9 devs talking about how at meetings they would not discuss how many features they could add, but how few they could include and what they could remove. I think that's very good advice to follow in software programming.
Last edited by Bbb23sucks on Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Globally banned" since September 5, 2023 for exposing harassment.

User avatar
Bbb23sucks
Sucker
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:08 am
Location: The Astral Plane
Has thanked: 1285 times
Been thanked: 274 times

Re: The MediaWiki development experience

Post by Bbb23sucks » Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:14 pm

If you have an hour to spare, I'd really recommend watching this video. It gives very good insight on what proper refactoring is:
"Globally banned" since September 5, 2023 for exposing harassment.

User avatar
ericbarbour
Sucks Admin
Posts: 4626
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:56 am
Location: The ass-tral plane
Has thanked: 1158 times
Been thanked: 1848 times

Re: The MediaWiki development experience

Post by ericbarbour » Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:24 pm

Bbb23sucks wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:30 am
I even noticed this myself when I needed to bring over some of Python's source code into the new forum software I'm building. The code (despite CPython having in general very good code quality) contained several obscure internal features that weren't really needed. (This was a C module that was accessed a Python wrapper that didn't even expose the features anyway). I got rid of the unneeded features and it sent me down a cascading effect of removing other (now unnecessary) code. In the end, the new code was much simpler, readable, more extensible, and faster.
You'll have to get used to this. Especially if you end up writing code in an actual corporate office (god help you).
I can't find it now, but there was a quote from one of the Plan 9 devs talking about how at meetings they would not discuss how many features they could add, but how few they could include and what they could remove. I think that's very good advice to follow in software programming.
I tried Plan 9 long ago on a PC. It was amazing--blindingly fast, consumed very little memory and disk space, easy to set up and reconfigure. Made Windoze, OSX and even early Ubuntu look miserable. Of course the industry ignored it.
Last edited by ericbarbour on Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
ericbarbour
Sucks Admin
Posts: 4626
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:56 am
Location: The ass-tral plane
Has thanked: 1158 times
Been thanked: 1848 times

Re: The MediaWiki development experience

Post by ericbarbour » Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:35 pm

lol....wanna see something funny?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... b_browsers

Scroll down to see endless "Lua error: not enough memory."

User avatar
Bbb23sucks
Sucker
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:08 am
Location: The Astral Plane
Has thanked: 1285 times
Been thanked: 274 times

Re: The MediaWiki development experience

Post by Bbb23sucks » Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:59 pm

ericbarbour wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:35 pm
lol....wanna see something funny?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... b_browsers

Scroll down to see endless "Lua error: not enough memory."
Haha. This is actually a regular occurrence on Wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category ... ule_errors
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User_tal ... ory_errors
Last edited by Bbb23sucks on Sat Sep 30, 2023 12:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Globally banned" since September 5, 2023 for exposing harassment.

Post Reply