Sanctioned Suicide meat preservative overdose cult & whitewashing by Wikipedians (general thread, Kevinsanc, Freedom4U)

[Ognistysztorm]

They don't really know what they want, but when they start doing something, they get very stubborn about it. It takes them a long time to realise that their treatment of one thing doesn't line up at all with another.

The result of this week's GA-review was to completely ignore Brennan's main complaint about the article being too sympathetic to the owners of largest predatory incel forum, then try to blame it on IPs, before taking back accusations toward IPs through self-edits days later, and having a random person close the discussion

Then Freedom4U put in the lede that the forum is a successor of alt.suicide.holiday. I'm sure there's a source somewhere at least impliying that, but well it's not. The successor to alt.suicide.holiday is #alt.suicide.holiday on Dalnet.... which is still up.

I know, because I went on Dalnet and asked them, they can give an exact lineage, all the intermediate forums and chats of the same name etc. SS can't establish such a lineage, they're a bunch of young guys who were just vultering a subreddit

Would also like to note that some of the recent NZ legal action directed at SS is stuff that could also be directed at Wikimedia itself.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/169427_N ... _FINAL.pdf
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/pub ... 13407.html
Specifically the hosting of instructions of barely effective suicide instructions. Much of the suicide instructions on Wikimedia owned sites, which were not revdeleted, and still somewhat in mainspace, were written BY Nathan Larson (now deceased after accused of kidnapping) on Wikimedia owned sites, which is clear to anyone reading the usernames on the respective pages.

So the implication is to start the total downfall of Wikipedia, one can snitch them to the New Zealand authorities, right?

[journo]

So the implication is to start the total downfall of Wikipedia, one can snitch them to the New Zealand authorities, right?

No I don't think that would start any downfall because they could simply ignore the requests from foreign countries as SS is currently doing. The only implication is some modern industrial, liberal democratic nations have legal qualms that 100% apply to Wikimedia owned sites at the moment. Though it's just over a few pages.

[journo]

After the Wikipedia page was locked, User:Johnj1995 today tried to add the bit about one of the alleged meat preservative sellers for Sanctioned Suicide being arrested and was speedily reverted by Freedom4U.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1170601303

This is now the third time they've tried to censor the arrest from the page.

F4U was trying to distance him from the site and said he was only arrested not convicted. RS already established he was connected enough to the site that SS members had come up with recognized initializations for his real first and last name, like "KL". From a news article on the subject:

Similarly, many posts on the forum appear to allude to Law’s business, referring to a “KL” and encouraging other users to contact that individual for a consultation or purchase.

https://www.cp24.com/news/this-is-horri ... -1.6384699
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/we-lost-a-ch ... -1.6385312

There is an enormous amount of RS about the arrest in the news, to the point that someone at Wikipediocracy claimed an entire Wikipedia page could be constructed from it.



There's 2 forums that promote this chemical, and so some Wikipedians are using that confusion as a dishonest club to keep the arrest out of the Wikipedia. The first forum is Nitschke's forum, which recommends the drug only to super old people on a vetted, closed forum. This is hardly publicized. The second is SS, which partially rehosts Nitschke's material to young people who aren't immobile and hence probably wouldn't need drugs for suicide even from their point of view, considering drugs are the least effect suicide route. Nitschke has repeatedly stated in public that he's tried to get SS to stop rehosting his material about drugs. Nitschke probably recognizes SS is a huge liability to his efforts to market the chemical.

Nitschke himself seems a bit unhinged despite some reasonable opinions that people should be able to choose when to end their life. One of the more unhinged things though is he markets the meat preservative to old people on the justification that it is used to control feral pigs.


https://archive.is/wmToO

Recently, a seller of a chemical similar to sodium nitrite was arrested in Netherlands and got 3 years in jail for selling the drug for suicide https://www.thecitizen.co.tz/tanzania/n ... ds-4307444

Philip himself implies the powder was a similar inorganic salt (which causes similar severe side effects in overdose including severe protracted headaches, protracted extreme low blood pressure, uncontrollable vomiting etc). He also posted that both sellers profited in excess of 90k USD from their alleged sale of inorganic salts for suicide.


https://archive.is/wip/wPlwN


Another unhinged thing Philip has done was try to collect recordings of his members killing themselves via the meat preservative. That's a pretty crazed way to test the safety of a novel suicide method on humans... through recommending people take it via an ebook and then giving them a thumbs up online for going all the way to completion. In his ebook he published a year prior to requesting videos, he stated he already knew that SN overdose symptoms were protracted before death by, in his words, almost an hour in humans. His only references to the science on it's peacefulness in the ebook was "controlling feral pigs" and that it "serves a vital public health function in that it blocks the growth of bacteria".


https://archive.is/24OHz

Philip has called the meat preservative method a "peacefull pill", and of all pro-euthanasia people to cite, he cited the Scientology-associated, right-libertarian Thomas Szasz in his defence of the method. https://archive.is/wip/UAMzP

Boudewijn Chabot, another pro-euthanasia activist has instead called the meat preservative method a "toxic cocktail" and warns against it in his book about dignified methods to die by suicide.
https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/uitweg/9200000035871257/

"Even if you use anti vomit tablets, a pain killer and benzo's with the SN the death struggle can last up to 40 hours. With convulsions and epeleptic seizures."
https://archive.is/tWuCM

If people read the failed overdose stories on SS (if they are even still up) there really is nothing controversial about Boudewijn Chabot's statement, it is clearly a cruel method to recommend to people, not to mention have as the main suicide method on the site. It wasn't even the most common method on the subreddit, only Small's forum. In fact, it was hardly ever mentioned on the subreddit. Additionally, all the reliable sources have rejected the 'controversial' framing, and are universally negative about this whole matter, even to the point of huge news organizations backtracking prior support for Philip. Seemingly all RS commentating on the matter has taken Chabot's stance instead.

[journo]

The UK created a whole 'online safety' bill, in part to block the site.

SanctionedSuicide responded by saying they would never comply with the bill if passed, in typical keyboard warrior fashion.

The bill passed, and OFCOM blocked the site to UK residents. After being sent a letter, SanctionedSuicide also complied and in turn blocked the UK, in typical fashion of being terrified of rubber hits the road law enforcement.

The new journalists publishing pieces about the site, ie Angus and his team are definitely WP:RS given their articles are from the BBC. Despite that, Wikipedia page patrollers on 'sanctioned suicide' don't seem too keen on reading, let alone letting the rush of new BBC articles in. They seemed to draw the line at the site being blocked and associated people being prosecuted, which is well happening and being reported by major international media regardless of what Wikipedia thinks.

[journo]

The public face of the site is 20x less sociopathic than it was the first 3 years. I can understand why people, especially Wikipedians go to the site and think.... aww well this isn't so bad. Yea not in public anymore. How could they at this point even if they wanted? They are probably letting the outer circle of their inner circle convince people the core of the leadership isn't sociopathic. Through putting up friendly barriers. Maybe even having the leader come out and be super fake-nice like before. But behind closed doors they are a crab, not someone with any allegance to anyone. There's little, if any, honor among literal thieves and criminals.

From what I've recently been informed by people in contact with law enforcement, the sociopathy hasn't stopped. Hard to believe the staff is unaware of it. They are driving off a cliff in defense of what? Their own egos? They may want to be infamous. An unfortunate reality of people who see themselves as villains and have even publicly admitted to it.

I also think critics in my place (on the internet generally) will be much less nuanced than me after I leave this whole topic. And that's not a threat, that's how I see things moving and I can't really force people to behave in any certain way. I would prefer it not be that way. In fact, I stopped privately contacting people about this topic months ago. Months after that, all the overzealous stuff started going down.

I knew (some) degree of how messed up the owners and their close circle were, for example. Was waving red flags about the site, in public, before the media was. Watched the site get set up. Didn't participate but knew it was a bad idea. Some ugly people over there. It's a sad situation all around, but I guess those people moving back to Reddit are thankfully taking their own initiative and leaving toxic people behind.

You can't expect people to act any certain way however when they are so publicly obsessed with self-annihilation, they could have a prey fetish for all I know. Nathan Larson's first and adult wife used a predecessor suicide site to SanctionedSuicide and I think met Larson there, maybe it was just a conscious part of her own self-destruction? You don't "accidentally" marry someone as public as Larson was about how gross he was. Finn was all over his blogs and shit, so she would have known he was a creep prior to marrying. Wikipedia wouldn't even let her edit, even when she provided proof she wasn't him, and despite her never breaking any rules, I assume their thoughts were similar to mine.

But the predation on SS I fear is still going on. You can't attack a cult by nipping away at its branches and banning substances and stigmatizing suicide discussion (all very irresponsible). I feel you have to take it down and let the truly hopeless but good people escape to figure out what they want to do. Whether it be finally being accepted by those around them for who they are as human beings or killing themselves.

When I used to be suicidal due to psychiatry, I knew what I think most rational people know, that jumping is the most dignified suicide method. Not a suggestion, but drugs are not dignified, not even as a choice. Unless immobile, it violates the NAP and the ethics of virtually any ethical system. Because its inneffective and demands others to participate in emotional terrorism. Such methods demand extravagent resources from paramedics, hospital staff etc, when a splat on the ground only needs a mop and a very large dustpan-like thing. A truly responsible SS site would only contain romantic memes about heights and height related songs/images/music. As well as the kinds of fun acrobatics that one could possible do alone at large heights. Not to provoke, but it could be a beautiful and shared vision of dignity in self-authored death if it was ever necessary.

Compare that to drugs, where the ingesters force others to watch their organs deteriorate over the span of hours. Beeping medical noises. Nurses without sympathy. Cold hospital floors. Tubes down throat. Vomiting. Intravenous drugs. Weeks spend in comas. Food that won't go down.

.net will eventually go offline. After it does there will be no outcry. They keyboard warriors who own and manage it it would probably be relieved to be deprived of the awful social role they gave themselves. Only comfort to those harmed by the owners and something more responsible would result.

[journo]

As mentioned on Wikipediocracy, Law is now charged with 14 counts of second-degree murder, up from lesser charges
https://news.sky.com/story/man-accused- ... s-13028893



Threads about it on .net are being deleted.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/ ... er.144775/

[ericbarbour]

Please keep posting about this. Thanks.

(You know there's a problem when the Encyclopedia Dramatica article is, in some ways, more accurate and informative than the Wikipedia article....)

[journo]

Please keep posting about this. Thanks.

This dispute is mostly an intra-right-wing dispute and a small number of them read this thread. The activist-oriented moms of the dead kids are self-described censorial right-wingers. The SS proponents (including Lamarcus) in my experience have also been self-described right-wingers and censorial, they can't even take criticism and get offended by hearing about basic facts of their own actions. Since beginning of this year they've tried to censor critical voices. They also constantly ban people on their forums for dumb reasons. Not free speech at all. I don't really share either side's overall politics. Liberal journalists seem to just want general accountability for the current sociopathic forum owners, which they've already accomplished, and aren't that interested in the actual intra-right-wing dispute. The Congressional stuff was also just a performative detour and not that related to the initial dispute btw the moms and the forum. I just think that any good faith SS people should leave to their own, less sociopath centralized, more federated platforms. I think a majority of people who've jumped into the topic, on any side, has gotten harassed. Not something I'm interested in. They can continue fighting if they want. I care more about my cat and my close friends than this topic or any topic so will spend time with them.

I'm a wiki guy so care more about the facts being accurately reported than the dispute itself. And to be fair to Wikipedia, their article has become much more close to relatively accurate sources since the start of this thread, and for other reasons.

[journo]

A former user of the site is saying sodium nitrite sources are recommended by site staff itself

https://archive.is/xX6qu


She had survived an attempt to overdose on "SN" (which they says publicly on their twitter) is now rallying against the site

Here they talk about SS staff allegedly abusing a suicidal minor.


https://archive.is/VHL0q


https://archive.is/FK7LF


https://archive.is/6q7bI

[ericbarbour]

I was just gonna comment: so much of this looks like the ravings of neurotic teenagers on Snapchat or Instagram or somesuch.....

Not sure I would want to be "young again" if this is the culture I'd be living with.