Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

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Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Philomath » Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:54 pm

Perhaps threads like this have existed in the past, but as I'm new here, I want to engage with you all on this topic.

Some Wikipedia critics seem to hold the view that Wikipedia is, on the whole, a bad thing. It is so broken, these critics would say, that it should be abandoned completely, and all Wikipedia-related efforts should be aimed at undermining the project, either by completely destroying it, decreasing its quality, or otherwise trying to diminish its popularity.

Other critics are of the opinion that Wikipedia is, on the whole, salvageable. As far as I can tell, these critics would argue that Wikipedia could be a very good thing, given a different editor culture, some policy changes, and a restructuring of the WMF.

What's the general feeling here? In which one of these two "camps" do you find yourself? I'm much more sympathetic to the latter group, although I keep an open mind towards those of the "eliminate Wikipedia" POV.

Some of the strategies I am pursuing, along the lines of orchestrating a "coup d'etat" from within.

  • Publish articles for a general audience that raise awareness of the Wikipedia problem broadly, as well as articles that discuss very specific problems that have specific, actionable solutions.

    Write a book about Wikipedia's propaganda problem, potentially with multiple authors, tying it in to the greater topic of the fascist fusion of the US security state and Silicon Valley.

    Recruit intelligent, articulate, and sane people to integrate themselves into Wikipedia over a period of months, with the ultimate aim of engaging, en masse, in policy debates, without the outward appearance of sockpuppetry or meatpupptery.

    See to it that multiple like-minded individuals (and some sockpuppets) enter the administrative class by becoming sysops.
Really looking forward to hearing some thoughts about all of this.

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Bbb23sucks » Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:01 pm

My opinion is that Wikipedia isn't salvageable. Not that the idea of an open source, online encyclopedia is a bad idea - I happen to consider it a very good one, but that Wikipedia is not that fundamentally. The more you learn about Wikipedia's function, structure, and history; the more you will realize that Wikipedia is actually not really an encyclopedia at all, rather all the seemingly massive flaws and dysfunctions aren't there by mistake, but by design, or at least indirect consequence of design.

One great example of this can be seen in how much time and effort they spend on their own bureaucracy vs actual content. Think about it. They spend so much time patrolling, creating bots, arguing over e-mail, ANI, IRC, ArbCom etc. Hundreds of tools for such things too. The most you'll find for actual content creations is talk pages, and those are mainly just political fights too. The only "content creation" tasks that have good support are the bureaucratic and unnecessary ones - i.e. formatting, spell checking, etc.

First and foremost, Wikipedia is built as a cult, both for the "community insiders" and the "WMF insiders". It can't really be fixed, because it is the problem. To fix Wikipedia, we should be focused on two things:
1) Building our alternative. Build a truly free and open source values that is actually based on the supposed values that Wikipedia is built on. One of Wikipedia's biggest issues is that is not build on content creation and expertise, but rather on your "political" within the cult. We should correct this by trying to reach to experts and universities as much as possible. Start with a content oriented-approach that still allows any competent person to contribute. Using real names would also be good.
2) Destroy Wikipedia. Create as much internal division as possible. Get as many negative articles published as possible. Hold protests and awareness campaigns. Print flyers. Reach out to websites that link to Wikipedia and suggest better alternatives or our own wiki.
Last edited by Bbb23sucks on Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Proncutor » Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:12 pm

The problem with salvaging is that the systemic issues run deep. Reforming and restructuring the WMF would be a monumental challenge on its own, to say nothing of the other tasks you listed. Each of these tasks will need a large investment of time from many people with low chance of success. Finding the number of volunteers needed would be hard. Wikipedia may be theoretically salvageable, in practice it isn't.

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by ericbarbour » Sat Sep 02, 2023 12:11 am

Philomath wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:54 pm
Some Wikipedia critics seem to hold the view that Wikipedia is, on the whole, a bad thing. It is so broken, these critics would say, that it should be abandoned completely, and all Wikipedia-related efforts should be aimed at undermining the project, either by completely destroying it, decreasing its quality, or otherwise trying to diminish its popularity.
Other critics are of the opinion that Wikipedia is, on the whole, salvageable. As far as I can tell, these critics would argue that Wikipedia could be a very good thing, given a different editor culture, some policy changes, and a restructuring of the WMF.
Note that you kept saying "critics". Wikipedia HATES actual critics. People who criticize the cult from within are always pushed out. Every openly-disgruntled administrator I know of ended up leaving. The only person I can think of, in recent years, who successfully went from outsider critic to insider (editing the Signpost) is Andreas Kolbe--and I know there are people in that sick little world who would like to push HIM out. Even though he's done them some real favors, simply by being honest.
Write a book about Wikipedia's propaganda problem, potentially with multiple authors, tying it in to the greater topic of the fascist fusion of the US security state and Silicon Valley.
Ed Buckner and I did that. With Kolbe's help. NOT ONE publisher was willing to print it--for fear of the WP cult and its mad intolerance of exposure. And Jimmy Wales, with his remarkable tendency to scream "NO LEGAL THREATS", while making his own legal threats in private.
See to it that multiple like-minded individuals (and some sockpuppets) enter the administrative class by becoming sysops.
Again, many people tried. And failed. A long list of administrators have been desysopped in the past 10 years, usually for "inactivity". Very few of them were willing to post critiques of the cult, so they would just give up and walk instead.

Their own goddamn list says "There are 889 (as of now) administrator accounts (active and otherwise), 462 of them active (as of 2023-09-01)." The active number hasn't been this low since early 2005. And it continues to decline slowly. Attempts to recruit new admins are failing, as the process is a deranged and paranoid political hellstorm. Look at the Tamzin RFA for an excellent recent example. That, sir, is a cult.
Last edited by ericbarbour on Sat Sep 02, 2023 12:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Philomath » Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:01 am

I read through the Tamzin RFA. Wow. I see that she/they are now active on a number of contentious political pages, including the pages of Republican presidential candidates.

Nothing to see here folks, no POV but the "facts" as determined by the "reliable sources" (that we choose arbitrarily). Tamzin is, in some ways, the perfect candidate for a Wikipedia administrator.

What other options do you have to publish your book, Eric? Self-publishing? Getting a group of people together to form an LLC to publish it, so that you can't be sued personally? Have you ever thought about making YouTube videos about Wikipedia criticism?

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Ognistysztorm » Sat Sep 02, 2023 3:49 am

Bbb23sucks wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:01 pm
My opinion is that Wikipedia isn't salvageable. Not that the idea of an open source, online encyclopedia is a bad idea - I happen to consider it a very good one, but that Wikipedia is not that fundamentally. The more you learn about Wikipedia's function, structure, and history; the more you will realize that Wikipedia is actually not really an encyclopedia at all, rather all the seemingly massive flaws and dysfunctions aren't there by mistake, but by design, or at least indirect consequence of design.

One great example of this can be seen in how much time and effort they spend on their own bureaucracy vs actual content. Think about it. They spend so much time patrolling, creating bots, arguing over e-mail, ANI, IRC, ArbCom etc. Hundreds of tools for such things too. The most you'll find for actual content creations is talk pages, and those are mainly just political fights too. The only "content creation" tasks that have good support are the bureaucratic and unnecessary ones - i.e. formatting, spell checking, etc.

First and foremost, Wikipedia is built as a cult, both for the "community insiders" and the "WMF insiders". It can't really be fixed, because it is the problem. To fix Wikipedia, we should be focused on two things:
1) Building our alternative. Build a truly free and open source values that is actually based on the supposed values that Wikipedia is built on. One of Wikipedia's biggest issues is that is not build on content creation and expertise, but rather on your "political" within the cult. We should correct this by trying to reach to experts and universities as much as possible. Start with a content oriented-approach that still allows any competent person to contribute. Using real names would also be good.
2) Destroy Wikipedia. Create as much internal division as possible. Get as many negative articles published as possible. Hold protests and awareness campaigns. Print flyers. Reach out to websites that link to Wikipedia and suggest better alternatives or our own wiki.
We're half on our way. The first point exist in the form of Justapedia which is formed with the hindsight to avoid Wikipedia's systemic issues as you described.

There are two Wikipedia scandals which if published on press or on high viewership journals, will likely turn the Internet against WIkipedia overnight, since one of them is so radioactive. You can ask Jennsaurus about it; she has the full story.
Last edited by Ognistysztorm on Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by ericbarbour » Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:00 am

Philomath wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:01 am
I read through the Tamzin RFA. Wow. I see that she/they are now active on a number of contentious political pages, including the pages of Republican presidential candidates.

Nothing to see here folks, no POV but the "facts" as determined by the "reliable sources" (that we choose arbitrarily). Tamzin is, in some ways, the perfect candidate for a Wikipedia administrator.
If you mean "Tamzin is a raving lunatic and would therefore be suitable for Wikipedia adminship", then I am forced to agree.
What other options do you have to publish your book, Eric? Self-publishing? Getting a group of people together to form an LLC to publish it, so that you can't be sued personally? Have you ever thought about making YouTube videos about Wikipedia criticism?
Self publishing is out. The co-authors want a serious publisher to handle it, so it will gain credibility.

I hate YouTube--it's a sewer of annoying nut-cases with charisma. Chasing clicks on there is only for charismatic types, "influencers", and for corporations with funding. If YOU want to make YT videos about WP, be my bloody guest and best of luck. I can feed you raw information about WP history.
Last edited by ericbarbour on Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Philomath » Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:24 am

ericbarbour wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:00 am


If you mean "Tamzin is a raving lunatic and would therefore be suitable for Wikipedia adminship", then I am forced to agree.
That is precisely what I mean.
Self publishing is out. The co-authors want a serious publisher to handle it, so it will gain credibility.

I hate YouTube--it's a sewer of annoying nut-cases with charisma. Chasing clicks on there is only for charismatic types, "influencers", and for corporations with funding. If YOU want to make YT videos about WP, be my bloody guest and best of luck. I can feed you raw information about WP history.
I'm not an influencer, or a corporation with funding, and I'm not sure if I'm the "charismatic type" or not. I do think that the importance of this information necessitates the use of the most effective means of mass communication available. I'm seriously considering creating audiovisual presentations for YouTube, along with writing articles.

Let's brainstorm more about that. If you had 10 minutes of someone's undivided attention - someone who knew next to nothing about Wikipedia, but wanted to learn - what would be your main bullet points? What is the most urgent and gripping information that the general public, especially the politically aware public, needs to know?

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Ognistysztorm » Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:28 am

Eric, I think you should strategize. To get the publishers to be receptive to your idea you have to first get the support of the public opinion. Letting the scandals such as what was uncovered by Jennsaurus to be published in high viewership journals is the first wave, followed by the next one where you can go to the publishers again as soon as the Internet is turned against Wikipedia by the first wave.
Philomath wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:24 am
Let's brainstorm more about that. If you had 10 minutes of someone's undivided attention - someone who knew next to nothing about Wikipedia, but wanted to learn - what would be your main bullet points? What is the most urgent and gripping information that the general public, especially the politically aware public, needs to know?
I know of a Canadian YouTuber JJ. McCullough who had repeatedly dissed Wikipedia on Twitter many times. He was a former editor and even an admin, and because of issues in his encyclopedic article he turned sour on them and retired while remaining in good-standing. If enough coaxing is done I'm sure that he'll prove a great ally.
Last edited by Bbb23sucks on Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should Wikipedia be co-opted or destroyed?

Post by Ognistysztorm » Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:56 am

Philomath wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:24 am
[...]
Wikipedia distorted Holocaust. That alone should irk many liberals and progressives.
Last edited by Bbb23sucks on Sat Sep 02, 2023 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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