"Fram Gate" in Arbcom

[Graaf Statler]

Thanks for this info, Tim. Are there other persons you are sure they didn't went to T&S? Because this is really helpful.

[Guido den Broeder]

Weirdly at Wikipediocracy they still think it's all about Laura Hale, despite the stream of information provided by WTT that indicates otherwise.

What is your alternative theory? It looks more and more like Laura Hale and a backstage canvas to astroturf support for her to me... Who else's ox did Fram gore? He's not even in the Top 10 of uncivil Wikipedians... Why him then?

I doubt that Laura Hale reported anything. She would rather be the reason why the ban is only for a year, instead of forever which would be more than justified.

The most problematic cases haven't been mentioned yet on-wiki even though they are easy to find. I don't know who filed them with T&S but my guess is someone from ArbCom, since (a) they were well aware of them, including the off-wiki harassment and (b) that explains why the filer couldn't and still can't go to ArbCom with them.

[CrowsNest]

An entertaining editorial.

Who knows, maybe Cullen is one of the people who went over everyone's head to T&S? Think he wouldn't do that? Really?

Jim is a personal friend of mine and I can say this with authority: No, he would not do this. Really.

Oh please. I was the one who RATed on Fram is the sort of incendiary secret even lovers would keep from each other. You may both be on Wikipedia, but you certainly don't move in the same circles.

And Jesus Christ, if you two are personal friends, then from what I've seen, Jim and Drmies must actually be lovers.

On a simple point of fact to illustrate both points, you know he talks to him about 14 times more often than he talks to you?

[Graaf Statler]

Weirdly at Wikipediocracy they still think it's all about Laura Hale, despite the stream of information provided by WTT that indicates otherwise.

What is your alternative theory? It looks more and more like Laura Hale and a backstage canvas to astroturf support for her to me... Who else's ox did Fram gore? He's not even in the Top 10 of uncivil Wikipedians... Why him then?

I doubt that Laura Hale reported anything. She would rather be the reason why the ban is only for a year, instead of forever which would be more than justified.

The most problematic cases haven't been mentioned yet on-wiki even though they are easy to find. I don't know who filed them with T&S but my guess is someone from ArbCom, since (a) they were well aware of them, including the off-wiki harassment and (b) that explains why the filer couldn't and still can't go to ArbCom with them.

No, it has absolute not Laura Hale or her wife, it's very unlikely, Crow has given reasons and motivations enough why not.
How else? Some arbcom member as Guido suggest here? A set up to frame madam Hale? A complete incompetent T&S team? A anonymous tip? We simple don't know and it's unimportant.

Because Arbcom must just do there job and not play some wiki investor. They must look at the evidence they got from WMF, ask Fram to react, in my opinion they must ask WMF to do a independently CU if that is not already done (Not by CU'S!) and come up with a verdict based on evidences and not on rumours or gaslicht.

[Guido den Broeder]

The most problematic cases haven't been mentioned yet on-wiki even though they are easy to find. I don't know who filed them with T&S but my guess is someone from ArbCom, since (a) they were well aware of them, including the off-wiki harassment and (b) that explains why the filer couldn't and still can't go to ArbCom with them.

No, it has absolute not Laura Hale or her wife, it's very unlikely, Crow has given reasons and motivations enough why not.
How else? Some arbcom member as Guido suggest? A set up to frame her? A complete incompetent T&S team? A anonymous tip? we simple don't know and it's unimportant.
Because Arbcom must just do his work and not play some wik investor. They must look at the evidence, ask Fram to react, in my opinion they must ask WMF toi do a CU if that is not already done and come up with a verdict based on evidences and not on rumours.

I think the conversation went something like this.

ArbCom member: "We have a big problem with one of our administrators that we can't deal with ourselves. For a moment we thought the worst was behind us, but it continues off-wiki. Since it borders on cases that you normally handle, could you help us out?"

T&S: "I think we can, using a broad interpretation of our mandate. You should be aware though of Fram v Laura Hale so we can't just siteban him, because that would look really bad. Let us introduce the possibility of a lesser sentence first."

ArbCom member: "Thank you. We will follow up by allowing the community to add more stuff, from the timeframe when this all started to get out of hand, and hopefully that will be enough to do what we want to do."

Community: "Bla bla Laura Hale bla bla bla we love Fram bla bla evil WMF bla bla bla Laura Hale Laura Hale Laura Hale bla bla stupid ArbCom bla bla bla ..."

[Carrite]

An entertaining editorial.

Who knows, maybe Cullen is one of the people who went over everyone's head to T&S? Think he wouldn't do that? Really?

Jim is a personal friend of mine and I can say this with authority: No, he would not do this. Really.

Oh please. I was the one who RATed on Fram is the sort of incendiary secret even lovers would keep from each other. You may both be on Wikipedia, but you certainly don't move in the same circles.

And Jesus Christ, if you two are personal friends, then from what I've seen, Jim and Drmies must actually be lovers.

On a simple point of fact to illustrate both points, you know he talks to him about 14 times more often than he talks to you?

Well, I'm friends with Jim's wife, too, so you'll have to leave that boyfriend theory in the realm of hyperbole.

I personally don't have major issues with Drmies. I steer clear of him and he steers clear of me; we both have other things to do. Jim takes being an administrator very seriously and I like him on-wiki much better as a regular editor than as an administrator. But he is an honest person.

The Fram ratting happened backstage with Laura Hale and her pals. They're well-connected and used a back channel to kneecap a longterm foe. She and they are still getting preferential treatment in the secret nature of the star chamber proceedings. This horseshit case wouldn't even be accepted by Arbcom under ordinary circumstances.

RfB

[CrowsNest]

Well, I'm friends with Jim's wife, too, so you'll have to leave that boyfriend theory in the realm of hyperbole.

It wasn't a serious accusation, just an illustration of how your idea of friendship may not be the same as his.

I personally don't have major issues with Drmies. I steer clear of him and he steers clear of me; we both have other things to do. Jim takes being an administrator very seriously and I like him on-wiki much better as a regular editor than as an administrator. But he is an honest person.

Yes, I know you avoid tackling the serious failings of Wikipedia. I used to think it was cowardice, but it is perhaps not surprising it is because you don't want to challenge your friends, or their friends. We have a thread on Jim, so feel free to rebuff any of the findings of dishonesty in there. It's what I would hope my friends would do.

The Fram ratting happened backstage with Laura Hale and her pals. They're well-connected and used a back channel to kneecap a longterm foe. She and they are still getting preferential treatment in the secret nature of the star chamber proceedings.

Yeah yeah yeah. I've posted all the things people who believe this shit need to answer, we hardly need it simply being repeated (except for the entertainment of seeing how many different versions of the same conspiracy theory are floating around).

This horseshit case wouldn't even be accepted by Arbcom under ordinary circumstances.

Catch up Timmy, that is rather the point of the whole controversy. Acceptance or not, it is a fact they were weeks away from the unprecedented? step of a sitting Arbitrator filing a case request in a personal capacity, in recognition of the fact there was clearly a problem, but for whatever reason, the community was not seemingly going to file a request themselves. Perhaps because they had seen ArbCom reject perfectly valid requests, perhaps because they had seen the revenge beatings dished out by Black Kite et al AN/I for daring to even question Fram's fitness. Perhaps because, as always, given the choice between progressing a case against an established Administrator valued by many, and simply retiring, the latter is the better option. At least one person came to that conclusion.

[CrowsNest]

PRAISE JESUS, FRAM IS GOING TO BE FOUND INNOCENT.......

Fram's 1 year ban is vacated
1a) The Committee decides that Fram's ban was not required, and therefore vacates it.

Support:

2. The problem here has not been Fram in isolation, it has been the community in allowing a committed and well meaning editor to behave rudely and aggressively. Fram is not the only editor who has felt justified in speaking harshly to others, and has not faced the whole community expressing their disapproval. Every editor on this community who supports hostility as a method of dealing with concerns, is responsible for what happened to Fram. Fram should not be punished for the environment we created which allowed him to feel he was justified in his aggression. SilkTork (talk) 17:47, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Wait. Whaaaat?

Didn't I tell everyone, Fram was banned both because of what he did, and what message the community's inaction to that point, represented. The ban was to send a message, that this shit needs to stop. The culture of toxicity as an accepted means of control, needs to end. The movement has principles and minimum standards, and it would like them to be applied, because if they're not, the money will run out, and/or Wikipedia will be used as the prime example of the need to regulate the internet.

Vacate Fram's ban by all means, you parochial little local boys, if you don't like the way the message was delivered, but I'm telling you now, if the message doesn't get received by en.wiki any other way, as it surely won't because all they will see here is VICTORY, the Foundation will be faced with no other choice but to deliver it another way.

Basically, if you thought FRAMBAN was an extreme measure, you might want to check what the Foundation really has in its arsenal. Remember, Super-Protect wasn't deactivated or decommissioned, they merely put a tarp over it.

They're probably drawing up the plans for the Genesis Device as we speak.

Don't you people get it?




















YOU'RE ALL GOING TO DIE.



HTD.

[Guido den Broeder]

How could they get it? All they know is their own toxic culture. They are blind.

[JuiceBeetle]

1a) The Committee decides that Fram's ban was not required, and therefore vacates it.
Support:
2. The problem here has not been Fram in isolation, it has been the community in allowing a committed and well meaning editor to behave rudely and aggressively. Fram is not the only editor who has felt justified in speaking harshly to others, and has not faced the whole community expressing their disapproval. Every editor on this community who supports hostility as a method of dealing with concerns, is responsible for what happened to Fram. Fram should not be punished for the environment we created which allowed him to feel he was justified in his aggression. SilkTork (talk) 17:47, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Does he mean "Yeah, Fram was aggressive, but the whole community is, so it's ok, welcome home."?
I agree. What matters is: what's the next step? "Keep doing it, we appreciate." or "Anybody who does it will be sanctioned in the future. Be more civil."