"Fram Gate" in Arbcom

[CrowsNest]

Absolutely cuckoo, this stuff.

We have a very unusual set of facts here. To the extent that Laura Hale expected confidentiality in her initial complaint to T&S, some would argue that she waived that when she posted a public notice on the top of her talk page addressed to Fram and making reference to specific T&S employees.

A very unusual set of facts. I have seen no statement from Hale that she expected confidentiality in her initial complaints, nor indeed that she has ever actually made a private complaint at all IIRC. And it is the very fact she very publicly called out Fram that shows she is unlikely to have done so, and it is therefore unlikely she is the person being protected from the baying mob, who are absolutely desperate to know who complained about Fram.

As smart people have said, there is no point anyone denying she is the complainant, because these brain dead QAnon freaks would not believe them, and it would expose those other people to the same extreme levels of vicious harassment, setting as it would the pig-dogs of Wikipediocracy off on their truffle hunt, diving through knicker drawers posting whatever pictures they find, because they absolutely won't accept these could have been independent complainants, that if they just keep digging, keep harassing, there must be some relationship to the Grand Conspiracy that can be uncovered.

Lunatics, the lot of them.

---------

Come on Timmy, time for your beating. What you got to say to that?

DON'T WAIT FOR THE TRANSLATION.

Be careful now, no bullshit. You know I will fuck you up if you don't come correct, and you know you can't deal when I do, running back to the safety of Uncle Jake's skirts.










Well?











Yeah, I didn't think so.

You can send Vigilant if you like, in your stead. If you think the maths is too hard for your little brain. He won't come, but I do so like to see the disappointed look in your eyes. None of the bigger boys ever give you any respect, not there or on Wikipedia. Nobody can respect people who are so regularly the cause of their own beatings. Be like Vigilant. Refuse to engage. That way you can never lose. The Undefeated Champion of his Block. A small man, with small ambitions. I don't blame Jake for preventing me from coming to your turf to scare you all with my facts and shit. He doesn't relish being King of a land laid waste. The fuck is even being talked about over there, other than this conspiracy theory? He's found his calling. King of the Muppets.

HTD.

[CrowsNest]

What a surprise. As a result of all his mouthing off, SilkTork comes to Fram looking for concrete solutions, and Fram is suddenly too busy, declaring he is simply open to workable solutions.

Well, here's a few.....

* Fram is subject to an indefinite civility parole, managed by ArbCom
* Fram is to submit complaints about users to a noticeboard as a first instance
* Fram is reminded of the expected standards of evidence (diffs for all specific claims, statistically robust evidence for alleged patterns)
* Fram is prohibited from repeating any points he has already made in any specific noticeboard report
* Fram is prohibited from filing noticeboard reports about a specific user or issue more than three times
* Fram is prohibited from taking Administrative action against any user he reports to a noticeboard (including on sister sites)
* Fram is prohibited from making generic criticisms or proposals relating to the governance systems of Wikipedia

Watch him have an absolute fucking meltdown. Probably wouldn't even read past the first bullet before having an embolism.

[JuiceBeetle]

and Fram is suddenly too busy, declaring he is simply open to workable solutions.

But not too busy to post a half-page comment criticizing the arbs
Drama-queens prefer drama to solutions.

[CrowsNest]

EllenCT now pushing the conspiracy theory hard, from the inside.

Sucks to be anyone who was a part of promoting this nonsense, because as far as people you'd want in your corner go, Ellen is literally toxic. Some of the crazy shit I've seen her trying to get publicity for on Wikipedia's dime, wowsers.

I guess though, if you throw nuts in the air, you're gonna attract the attention of squirrels, right?



Been some hilarious side effects though, to this era of open tolerance of fuckwittery. Wikipedians turning up to say all kinds of crazy shit.......

......We are not fundamentally here just to build an encyclopedia, important though that is -- we are here to show that a project as extensive as a truly universal free encyclopedia can be built without authoritative structure, as a preliminary step for extending this to human interactions and work more generally. I certainly understood, Jimbo, that this was your personal vision also, and you should not countenance those who would destroy it. None of us should. For some purposes we need background support from a formal legal entity, and even paid staff, but they must know to not interfere with the actual project, which is not their work, but the work done by the volunteers. They may have the legal responsibility , in terms of the formal and amoral legal organization of the world, but they have it only for the purpose of isolating the project from that conventional world...... DGG ( talk ) 00:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a communist plot.

You heard it here first.

If conspiracy theories are de rigour, then you either go big or go home!

For those still interested in serious Wikipedia criticism, boring as it is I know, this is of course yet another comment from someone claiming en.wiki is an autonomous self-government, who absolutely doesn't want to accept what that GLOBAL BANS ARE A THING AND THEY HAVE NEVER OBJECTED TO THEM ONCE, and what that says about their shitty project and their deluded ideas.

They like to think these are only ever applied to paedophiles and those who pose a physical threat, but they don't know that, because there is an authority higher than any of these wide eyed dreamers, and they do keep secrets from them, for the equivalent of their version of national security. Any freedom from authority Wikipedians have, is a mere illusion, and they're just dumb enough to go along with it. Lest they forget, Fram would have actually been globally banned were it not for T&S generously coming up with a less severe way of doing such things. Oh how I laughed when many of the Wikipedians openly said, had Fram been globally banned, they'd have not said a word, even if Fram rocked up on the hate site loudly processing his innocence.

[CrowsNest]

Crackpot central is ignoring it, but with his votes, AGK has all but confirmed he was the RAT.

He has criticized the messaging of the WMF in explaining why they began banning Vested Contributors (putting him a serious spot for taking advantage of it).

He has pointedly noted "sorry" is not a word heard often in the asshole infested Wikipedia community.

He stands alone in opposing the idea ArbCom should not be site banning experienced users who are supposedly first time offenders, on the rather obvious grounds that all too often the community fails to act, meaning when they finally reach ArbCom's attention, they are so far gone, so irreformable, a ban is the only workable solution.

He stands alone in arguing the community provided evidence alone is horrific, it deserved a desysop, and just because the community and his cowardly colleagues wouldn't have banned Fram for it, there is merit in recording that fact.

He points out the Committee have failed to transparently address attacks on itself, an obvious grievance given it was he who Fram personally attacked.

He is insistent that Fram's status as an Administrator should not be handed back to the community, it was specifically remanded to ArbCom, and therefore they should not wuss out of their responsibilities in saying he shouldn't be one, and for how long.

He's adamant that it doesn't matter by what process the realization that Fram is a shit Administrator was arrived at, it is their job to make sure the correct outcome is achieved - he should no longer be an Administrator.

He's makes it clear that the community are apparently blind to the fact a hard working Administrator can also be a fucking shit Administrator.

He supports the remedy limiting Fram to 500 words a post, correctly observing the guy is an inflexible but incessant gobshite, whose modus operandi was to bury his opponents in bullshit, because he plainly lacks the ability to be incisive. He's correctly identified that if it doesn't work, it doesn't mean it wasn't warranted.

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Does any of the above sound like he's the kind of guy who, on reaching the point he had apparently reached, unable to convince ArbCom to address the Fram problem and having to suffer the humiliation of unfettered personal attacks from an Administrator no less, is not going to go over their heads?

The only thing that doesn't fit, is his claim he doesn't support a ban. But it would be a bit of a giveaway if he stood alone to support it now, when it's clear nobody else will. Doesn't mean he wasn't fine with the WMF banning him. Maybe he asked for a desysop, and things just got a little bit out of control, given the WMF clearly have even less tolerance for this sort of misconduct than him.

But hey, if people want to think this was all about Laura Hale, be my guest. You look like utter morons who can't even see what is right in front of your QAnon faces, but I somehow don't think that really bothers you, right? Spackers.

Speaking of which.......

We have nothing to do with WMF governance. I was always unconvinced by the allegations of a conspiracy against Fram. AGK ■ 17:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

OMFG, HE'S IN ON IT TOO!

ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK.

[Carrite]

He supports the remedy limiting Fram to 500 words a post, correctly observing the guy is an inflexible but incessant gobshite, whose modus operandi was to bury his opponents in bullshit, because he plainly lacks the ability to be incisive.

.......declares the person, without irony, who just wrote a 1,030 word screed criticizing a 1,360 word blogpost...

RfB

[Graaf Statler]

I miss complete the point what you want to make, Tim. Complete.

[Abd]

Been some hilarious side effects though, to this era of open tolerance of fuckwittery. Wikipedians turning up to say all kinds of crazy shit.......

......We are not fundamentally here just to build an encyclopedia, important though that is -- we are here to show that a project as extensive as a truly universal free encyclopedia can be built without authoritative structure, as a preliminary step for extending this to human interactions and work more generally. I certainly understood, Jimbo, that this was your personal vision also, and you should not countenance those who would destroy it. None of us should. For some purposes we need background support from a formal legal entity, and even paid staff, but they must know to not interfere with the actual project, which is not their work, but the work done by the volunteers. They may have the legal responsibility , in terms of the formal and amoral legal organization of the world, but they have it only for the purpose of isolating the project from that conventional world...... DGG ( talk ) 00:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a communist plot.

Well, I knew DGG well, he has been, relatively speaking, one of the good guys. What he described was indeed a common vision, and calling it "communist" is utterly naive. It is more anarchist/libertarian as to political compatibility. I also saw Wikipedia as an opportunity for widespread cooperation. Cooperative, not communist. The Foundation was seen solely as a facilitator of the community.

The problem was that naive anarchism leads to oligarchical control, per the Iron Law of Oligarchy, look it up. It is indeed an Iron Law, it is inevitable, but there are ways to create an oligarchy that serves the community, and it was my attempt to bring some of these to Wikipedia. Bill Wilson did it with Alcoholics Anonymous, an incredibly successful organization that has no central control, no dogma (though sometimes common opinion is attacked as AA dogma), and which avoided the centralization of power that attracts domination.

Wikipedia was an experiment. DGG describes it as an attempt to demonstrate, to "show." But the process of reviewing success and failure, and structure for doing that, was not set up, and extending what Wikipedia does to other activities would be to repeat a series of failures. Wikipedia did create an encyclopedia, but with incredible inefficiency and practically guaranteed unreliability, and with constant maintenance needed, whereas a sane structure could be less authoritarian, more reliable, and more efficient. More in line with true consensus. (True consensus takes more discussion and communication than Wikipedia generally tolerates, but when true consensus is found, it is highly stable -- and the process can be made far more efficient than is normally expected. That was, in fact, what I attempted to bring to Wikipedia.)

But those in power don't have the necessary vision, it was more like wishful thinking.

[Graaf Statler]

It is more anarchist/libertarian as to political compatibility. I also saw Wikipedia as an opportunity for widespread cooperation. Cooperative, not communist. The Foundation was seen solely as a facilitator of the community.

Not true. They have/had even a active political wing, The Pirate Party.

That is fine, all fine for me, but if so rent your own server space, start you one project, rent your own domain, and built your own pirate organisation. You can't simple stand with one feet in the real society with all it's rules and regulations, beging for money in that same society without saying what your real goals are and be with your other feet in some leftish revolutionary crazy gender related organisation with copytheft.

And I am sorry, by me also occurred often a strong picture of links lullen, rechts zakken vullen. Because many, many of that wiki revolutionaries enjoy the free lunches, free dinners, free hotels and free beer latterly very, very much. Salon Communist is a other term what often crossed my mind..

(Links lullen rechts zakken vullen means dick, talk leftish and fill your right pocket. lullen is to dick, telling crap in Insane Dutch Clown.)

[Anyone]

I miss complete the point what you want to make, Tim. Complete.

Tim -- the mighty Oracle from Oregon -- is being a wee bit mischievous.

He's suggesting the all-powerful CrowsNest is as verbose as Fram. Shocking!